The ending of The Dark Knight has caused a minor controversy among fans. With Gotham's future up in the air, many wonder - what happened to Harvey Dent? Spoilers after the break. Lots. If you haven't seen this movie, turn off your computer and run away. I don't want to ruin anyone's movie-going experience.
Harvey Dent is fucking dead.
There are people out there, who say "oh man, he didn't die directly on-camera." Then there are the people who bring up the fact that Aaron Eckhart says he would love to do another. Both of these are irrelevant.
The fact of the matter is, Dent dies from a long fall. The only reason Batman survives is because he's in top physical condition, and is wearing armor. Dent lies motionless.
Scenes from his funeral are shown. There's no way they would show scenes from his funeral if they didn't bury him.
Now, some of the idiots over at Superhero Hype (still not linking to those morons) have suggested that Batman and Gordon could have covered it up and thrown him in Arkham. Problem is, people would notice if Gotham's White Knight was in Arkham Asylum. And, an extra patient in a mental institution is pretty hard to miss.
Plus, Nolan would never do something so ridiculous. It would not be realistic, and would destroy the end of the movie.
The end is brilliant because Dent gets to die a hero, and Batman is exposed for what he truly is - "The hero Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now. Because he's not a hero. He's a silent protector, a watchful guardian - a Dark Knight." If Two-Face lives, it undermines the fact that Harvey Dent really is the hero that can save Gotham - and he is.
I just hate when people wonder "is so and so dead, or is he coming back for the next one?" It ruins the movie. You start to miss the point. Of course Sal Maroni can't die on-screen, car crashes can get pretty grizzly, and this was PG-13 after all. If you actually wonder whether or not he died, you're missing the point - the point is, super-villains like Dent and Joker usher in a new era of crime in Gotham, and the mob bosses don't fit anymore. So, they all die. Maroni is as dead as dead can be. He's not coming back, get the hell over it.
Stop thinking about the sequel is what I'm trying to say. Stop and enjoy this one, because this is as good as Batman gets.
Remember when he flipped a coin for himself and it landed unmarred face up? (right before he died)
ReplyDeleteHE IS STILL ALIVE.
They faked his funeral to inspire Gotham, and probably did lock him away in Arkham (of course this could go unnoticed)...
"If Two-Face lives, it undermines the fact that Harvey Dent really is the hero that can save Gotham - and he is."
ReplyDeleteWell wasn't that joker's ultimate victory? that he turned the incorruptible, true hero into a villain?
and well, are cover ups really that hard to believe and unheard of in today's world? if the movie is supposed to be realistic, then the whole cover up consipiracy wouldn't be contradicting that fact.
Also, u said yourself Nolan is smart. Would it seem smart to give 2face, one of the MAIN villains in the batman story, only 20-30minutes of screen time? Dent didn't exactly have time to develop into a 'super' villian. I think Nolan has done what he did with the 1st movie, leaving a hint as to who the villain is for the next movie.
Also my friend just saw the movie again the other night, he tells me u can actually see harvey breathing while he is on the ground, and if i recall correctly batman and Gordon discuss what to do with harvey as he lays there and ends up deciding to 'announce' that he is dead...which to me suggests that he isn't dead or else there would b nothing to discuss. I'm not entirely sure that disussion took place or whether harvey is infact breathing or not, guess we'll find out when it comes to dvd :P
This is just my opinion. But yes i do agree that we should enjoy this one, because it is the best superhero flick we'll see for a long time.
I think it's left open-ended, so...they can go in either direction? Any chance of that happening? It's left ambiguous for creative flexibility (should the Nolans/Goyer decide to craft a tale incorporating Two Face in the future or not). Could be dead, could be alive, it doesn't really matter because we don't know.
ReplyDeleteWho's to say Arkham in the Nolanverse doesn't have cells that are "off the books" so to say after the narrows were lost? Secret CIA torture camps anyone? They had a secret MCU super fortress, I certainly don't see them placing an incapacitated Dent in Arkham as some ludicrous stretch by any means.
I also think the cover-up theory is great in that it paints even the best of us (Gordon, Wayne) as hypocritical (exactly as the Joker asserted): willing to lie and cheat/sacrifice our moral fibers for the "greater good". Just another dimension to the ending imo.
And there's no doubt in my mind they're making a third one, with or without Nolan. The instant this movie made more than 100M on opening weekend WB greenlighted 3 (and got its bean counters to make a pitch for 4, 5, and 6).
The coin flip before he dies is for the commishs son, not for himself.
ReplyDeleteInterview with Nolan
ReplyDeleteNolan said:
“Harvey Dent is a tragic figure, and his story is the backbone of this film.”
And to fans of the comic, this makes a lot of sense. Harvey Dent (played by Aaron Eckhart) is a District Attorney for the city of Gotham, and will feature as the main villain in the next sequel, after he disintegrates into Two Face, a character last played on the big screen by Tommy Lee Jones in Batman Forever, around which time the last Batman franchise started becoming a byword for laughable. Harvey Dent himself has never really been a focus of a Batman movie, and it seems that Nolan intends to change all that, by focusing on the character before he becomes a villain and showing a more human side."
i seriously doubt that the director would have said he was dead if he was going to be the main villain for the next sequel. We were supposed to think Gordon was dead for half the film. You're saying you don't think they could or would do that again. Think again. It's happening.
The first comment I made after seeing the film (which was brilliant) was that two face is not dead. A memorial was heald for Dent, but I think that two face lives on.
ReplyDeleteYou never see him being buried, you never see him being put in a body bag and it never cuts back to him after his fall (except in the speech where they roll his face over). Nobody checks his pulse etc. Whose to say two face didnt get up and walk away himself? There is no proof that he was put into Arkham, but its still possible. Gordon and Batman may have covered things up, but then again bodies go missing all the time, they might have never been informed.
Im just speculating possible plot developments, but at the end of the day, writers decide plot developments (and im not one). I dont think this is the last we will see of two face by any means, hes too much of a majour character to be in half a film.
Nobodies trying to detract from this film, its been great I loved seeing it, I am going to see it again, but it doesnt stop anyone speculating about the next film, and getting excited about future possibilities.
Ok, this is freaking ridiculous. People are complaining that Two-Face can't be alive because it would be absurd and unrealistic???? HELLO??? Were' talking about a dang Batman movie here. Batman. Adapted from a comic, and we all know that comics have unrealistic scenerios. Now of course, the movie has to have some realism to it to be good, well, so do comics. It takes good writing to make unrealistic things still seem real and believable to the reader. It takes imagination, and inventiveness,which uses things from the real world to create a fictional world. A writers ideas about his stories and characters still derive from reality, no matter how "absurd" they may be.
ReplyDeleteNow take film; take a film like The Dark Knight. We have a billionaire that dresses up like a winged creature, and has skills and abilities so advanced, that he can enter a room without a sound or moments notice, and he can disappear just as silently and just as quickly. We see how they explained in detail why he has to dress like a bat, and how he has these abilities, just so it can look and feel real to us. It doesn't take a genius to know that they researched painstakingly and thoroughly so that Batman's costume weapons, fighting skills, etc. had their roots in reality. And they succeeded awesomely, but the fact still remains that no one has or will ever spend millions and millions of dollars on a Bat suit and Bat equipment so they can go out and fight crime, while damaging public property; because no one can in the REAL world.
I ask you, if we are suppose to believe in Batman fighting crime, and the Scarecrow with his fear gas, AND the Joker.... than why is it so much to ask that we believe Two Face could still be alive? Why is it so hard to believe that he could walk around as Two Face? Everyone knows in the back of their minds that it's probably impossible to walk around painless with half your face burned off, but this is FICTION. You can do pretty much whatever you please in fiction, and remember, it's good writing (and filmaking) that can make it have realism. Whats more, this is entertainment. It's escapism. We enjoy it when we don't think TOO much about it. Now, if we must focus on how things are "absurd" and how they can never really happen in the real world and therefore should not be done in fiction, then we might as well look at the whole dang Batman film. You can't just complain about one aspect, and exclude the others.
P.S. Who's to say it's not entirely possible to fake the death of a public official, change identity, etc? If it's possible for Jim Gordon to fake it... not to mention what lengths police, the government, and even presidents have probably went through to keep secrets from people in the REAL world... I wouldn't rule that scenario out either.
Hey whatever dude, you and I just disagree on this. If you can put your 2 cents out there, than so can I. You won't change my mind either. But whatever, it's still just a movie. And I never said that good fiction "isn't grounded in reality" my point was that it is.
ReplyDeleteAnd I hate dumb movies as much as anybody else, I just don't see how maybe bringing back Harvey Dent is dumb. The director can feel however he wants about it, still doesn't change my opinion one bit.
Ok, I do apologize. I do respectfully except your opinions.
ReplyDeleteI don't think you are crazy, but I was just adamant about how I felt. The thing is,I do agree that we should just enjoy the movie right now, and maybe not focus too much on all this talk about who is dead/alive, who will be in the 3rd, ect. because it is really too early to say right now.
isnt it more important that the Joker lived???, and heath ledger is dead-who could play him aswell as heath did
ReplyDeleteWell I would agree with your argument, except for the fact that Nolan lifted the Dark knight from a previous Batman comic book event:
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_The_Long_Halloween
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_Dark_Victory
The Dark knight follows references the Batman graphic novel “The Long Halloween” in which he fights the joker and two face is created. “Dark Victory” the sequel graphic novel then continues with the story of two face. You can read the plots summaries on the links provided. In a nutshell "The Long Halloween" is almost identical to the story we see in The Dark Knight. Dark victory continues the story with Two Face/Harvey Dent in Arkam and the mob breaking in to kill him to avenge their dead bosses... it doesn't go as planed and Two Face gets out. They are not creating new story lines here. The script may be new but the plot was written a while ago in the comic books. Its just up to them how much of it they use.
"You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain" They let "Harvey Dent" die a hero but we know that he lives on to become the villain.
Side Note: "The Dark Victory" also introduces Batman's side kick: Robin. So depending on how closely the stick to the plot of the comics we may be getting a Robin in the next movie
I think he could be easily placed in Arkham because in Nolan's universe Arkham is it's own island now.
ReplyDeletewhy is that?
ReplyDeletemaybe that's the point. they can't cover it up and it will blow up in their faces...in the 3rd movie! ZOMG!
ReplyDeleteYou can’t fake the death of a public official and expect no one to notice. People want to see a body - and they would have, at his funeral. And there’s no way Harvey Dent in Arkham off the books would go unnoticed. That’s ludicrous.
ReplyDeleteBut they faked Gordon's death. He is a pretty well known dude. You can't hide a mustache like that from the public.
Who knows what kind of deep padded cell they could have for Dent. Get him all cleaned up and rehabbed. Maybe give him a new identity and send his ass to Bermuda or Guam. The Dark Knight Returns, Dent got better and had facial reconstruction. But then flipped out again. Oh Denty! Will you ever learn?
Oh and one more thing. What do you guys think about (this is a stretch here) Gordon's kid becoming a Robinesque character? He knows Batman is the shiz and he's already got those cool night time goggles. I know that cute little girl Gordon becomes Batgirl but I don't know. That little boy's face was screaming "injustice!". He is way too young though. They would have to skip ahead many years. They could even play off of the whole Batmen vigilante thing with the little snot nose and show that other people are taking a stand against these weirdos popping up. If other villains are going to pop up, the adverse effect would be other heroes popping up to counteract that. Or maybe Angelina Jolie will play Catwoman and will finally do another nude scene that we have deserved all these years and make the next Batman sequel R Rated for all the right reasons.
ReplyDeleteCan you explain this 'police-mandated program' for faking death that you know so much about?
ReplyDeletePolice going undercover != faking a death and having even your family believe so.
ReplyDeleteI dont think they really can cover it up, so that 2Face can be a villain. As far as Gordon going to jail, it's not like he has much of a choice in this situation. He can say Dent is alive, but mentally unstable and unfit to be DA, public shocked, blah blah blah, or he can say he's dead, which, in a sense, he truly is. He can't go back to being Harvey (or can he? Possible 3rd movie plotline) and it's entirely possible that Gordon says based on the situation I made the decision that I saw most fit (sounds like something a lot of leaders might say today...). Yes, there is a possibility for backlash against him. But it wasn't entirely his fault that Harvey became what he is. Haven't you heard of politicians lying before?
ReplyDeleteWe've been debating his death, and you offer this gem of evidence
ReplyDelete"You’re forgetting the fact that Harvey Dent is really really dead by the end of the second movie, though. He doesn’t have to cover anything up because Dent has died."
Very objective sir! Kudos!
Gordon doesn't have to do jail time if 2Face is alive. I don't understand why you hold onto that as one of your five pillars. What about the Joker's speech about "introducing some anarchy" into Gotham? What about Harvey's new belief that the only fairness in an unjust world like Gotham is luck (or chance)? I don't believe it's ridiculous to maintain Harvey because of the nature of the villain, as I alluded to before. Joker is Batman's unstoppable force yes, but Harvey is Bruce's painful reminder that he is alone. 2Face could easily go hell bent on exposing Batman after escaping from Arkham as a side story in the third movie.
ReplyDeleteNo I just think that Harvey has more to offer as a villain. he could even be redeemed by batman getting through to him. i dont think that if harvey was in it still a lot of ppl wouldnt go see it. and eckhart is contractually bound to another movie.
ReplyDeleteI’ve waited a while to chime in on this debate but now feels like the right time.
ReplyDeleteLet me start by asking Dr. Wolper - where did you get the information that Eckhart is signed on for another movie? That is the first I have heard of it and I would like to think I do a good job on keeping up with Batman movie news. If you have a link to a site that explicitly proves Eckhart is on board for the next movie then please send it my way. If not then I have no choice but to take that assertion as nothing more than speculation. Right now I find it hard to believe since as far as I know little if any preproduction work has begun on the next Batman movie.
Now Dr. Wolper, I don’t want you to think I’m attacking your stance on this issue. Believe it not, I am actually quite open to the notion of Two-Face coming back. I just don’t want to see it executed poorly. It’s obvious that you and many other fans want to see Two-Face get more screen time and that’s understandable as he is a good character. But when you step back and look at the bigger picture, Two-Face has served his purpose in the Nolan series.
There are so many other Batman villains that can be explored that it just comes off as a waste to double up on ones that have already been used. Especially when there isn’t a straightforward, solid way for doing it. I personally can’t think of a decent way of bring back Two-Face without making it seem forced, without it degrading the message present in The Dark Knight. At the end of the day in order for The Dark Knight to work to it’s maximum effectiveness Harvey Dent has to die.
People say that Nolan is smart and didn't think about the third movie? What kind of argument is that? He did batman Begins and set up the story for the Joker, didn't he? Yet Batman Begins was still a self contained story and hinted towards the joker's appearance in The Dark Knight.
ReplyDeleteWhy is it so difficult for people to not see the possibility in Two-Face also? There's a reason why Nolan focused so much on Harvey Dent prior to the character becoming Two-Face. A competent filmmaker like Nolan would not leave out a coffin at a funeral. The ending is purposefully ambiguous just as Harvey/Two-Face's actions are always ambiguous and left to chance.
As for what it says in the script... so what? Scripts change during production. Perhaps they were counting on Heath's return as the Joker, but because of his death the circumstances surrounding Dent's death is left ambiguous. Like I said, it doesn't make sense that a coffin wouldn't be present during a funeral. Also, Gordon supposedly died in the story and then came back... all this could just be misdirection. Like the Joker says, "It's all part of the plan."
I feel as though because of the fact that Heath Ledger is dead, they gave themselves some leeway with Dent's potential return. The script would be completely damning evidence if Heath Ledger were still alive, but because of that I think they decided to leave it a bit more open.
ReplyDeleteThe writer of this article has too many pre-concieved notions of both the ending and how a realistic cover-up would work in a sequel:
ReplyDelete"The fact of the matter is, Dent dies from a long fall. The only reason Batman survives is because he’s in top physical condition, and is wearing armor. Dent lies motionless.""
So? The fall wasn't the size of what the Joker had been falling only 10 minutes earlier.
"Scenes from his funeral are shown. There’s no way they would show scenes from his funeral if they didn’t bury him."
Who says it was a funeral? Not a wake or memorial? I don't remember the Commissoner's body being present at the service held for him in the middle of the very film we speak of.
"Now, some of the idiots over at Superhero Hype (still not linking to those morons) have suggested that Batman and Gordon could have covered it up and thrown him in Arkham. Problem is, people would notice if Gotham’s White Knight was in Arkham Asylum. And, an extra patient in a mental institution is pretty hard to miss."
Who said first of all, who is in on it and who is not? And second of all, who ever said Dent is interred in Arkham? It could just as easily been that the Mayor pulled strings and got him placed in a federal facility or a facility in another state far from Gotham.
"Plus, Nolan would never do something so ridiculous. It would not be realistic, and would destroy the end of the movie."
Why?
"The end is brilliant because Dent gets to die a hero, and Batman is exposed for what he truly is - “The hero Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now. Because he’s not a hero. He’s a silent protector, a watchful guardian - a Dark Knight.” If Two-Face lives, it undermines the fact that Harvey Dent really is the hero that can save Gotham - and he is."
There's other ways to read the ending. It doesn't undermine that ending at all. What does Two-Face living have to do with who Harvey Dent was? What, are you saying that if Two-Face lives it proves that even if Harvey Dent had not suffered his accident along with Rachel he could have never cleaned up Gotham? How does that make sense???